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558: Saddleback vs the SBC & Misusing the Marriage Metaphor with Beth Felker Jones & Amy Peeler

Rick Warren, the founder and former pastor of Saddleback Church, is speaking out after his church was ejected from the Southern Baptist Convention for ordaining women. Phil explains how the SBC went from being accepting of female leaders, to opposing them, to kicking out churches that depart even slightly on the issue. Then, Kaitlyn talks with Dr. Beth Felker Jones and Dr. Amy Peeler about Joshua Butler’s controversial article comparing the gospel to marital sex. They explain what his article gets fundamentally wrong about the New Testament’s marriage metaphor. Plus, a new study finds evangelicals are the least liked religious group in America, except by evangelicals who think they’re great. And someone is anonymously leaving their mark on Broadway.

Patreon Bonus: Bonus Interview with Beth Felker Jones & Amy Peeler

Patreon Bonus: Listener Question

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0:00 - Intro

2:45 - Theme Song

3:55 - News of the Butt

9:03 - Evangelicals loved by Evangelicals, but not anyone else

14:14 - SBC history around women ordination

26:49 - Denny Burke’s response to Rick Warren

46:14 - Guest Interview - Beth Felker Jones & Amy Peeler

53:47 - Can marriage and sex point us to God?

59:29 - Interpreting the marriage metaphor in Ephesians 5

1::03:11 - Flaws of the giver, receiver framework

1:18:59 - End Credits

Links mentioned in news segment:

Fan poops in aisle near Hillary and Chelsea Clinton at Broadway show

Evangelicals Are the Most Beloved US Faith Group Among Evangelicals

The Southern Baptist Convention’s coming ‘Great Ejection’

Other resources:

The Bible’s Marriage Metaphor Doesn’t Belong In the Bedroom by Amy Peeler

Protestant bodies, Protestant bedrooms, & our furious need for a theology thereof by Beth Felker Jones

Faithful: A Theology of Sex by Beth Felker Jones

Holy Post website:

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Apr 06, 2023

It's clear there is a significant difference between US churches and UK churches on complementarianism. Here (UK) the churches I know are not so hard line on it. They will let women lead bible studies, have women ministering to other women (in paid roles) they may even get to lead a service. They would work with other churches that held a more egalitarian line too. It sounds like this would be an anathema to some SBC churches.

However, it doesn't tend to be discussed in the open. It's more that we know you disagree but let's not open that can of worms up. Even though you could talk about it but agree to disagree for the sake of unity. We…


Please have Kaitlyn and Dr. Felker Jones and Dr. Peeler on again!

They have been so helpful to me in pointing to a positive view of how God intended our femaleness or maleness to be a beautiful expression of His glorious image.

Thank you so very much!


Alrighty then...

Here's my $0.02 on news of the butt. Keep in mind I am writing as a 60+ y/o male who currently has six grandchildren (four of whom are boys); played sports many years ago; heard all the guy stuff there is to hear about bodily functions; etc, etc.

This last episode (of NOTB) stunk...There's an infinite number of ways to bring levity to your podcasts without resorting to such sophomoric lows. I'm with Kaitlyn's mom on this...flush it once and for all.

Otherwise, excellent episode.

Replying to

You did a better job than me ... also 60 y/o male, no grandkids and I felt exactly this way. I left even more pointed feedback, but off-forum, starting with suggesting that Phil and Skye are both still 12-year-olds.

flush it? yup yup...ank


Laura Priebe
Laura Priebe
Mar 31, 2023

I found myself talking back to this podcast more than I expected I would. Specifically, when Dr. Peeler and Dr. Jones were talking about gender and how it doesn't affect our brains. I admit I don't go as far as Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, but I do still believe that male and female brains are different. Whether that is by God's design or a result of cultural norms is another question entirely. I think our culture's movement towards acceptance of trans people is an indication that our culture still affirms some key male and female differences apart from the physical difference.

All in all, however, I appreciated the conversation, and I'm glad I am a patreon…

Replying to

I listened to that comment about genitals not affecting our brains a couple of times. It seems like they are trying to un-link culturally prescribed actions from genitals. Ie: Just b/c I have a uterus, doesn’t mean I am the one that always goes to the grocery store.

From a biological perspective (& I am not sure this is what they were talking about- maybe they can clarify??) even though genitals don’t necessarily affect your brain, the complex interplay of hormones (which also lead to the creation of genitals during human development and also are a part of the cyclical feedback loop between the brain and gonads starting in puberty) on the body DOES affect the brain from a purely…


I’m grateful for this discussion and am generally interested in more discussion about women’s roles in the church. The discussion in this episode about the hypothetical restricting of women’s roles in the church by the SBC in the future is an interesting one, and I think some context from other denominations would be helpful. The PCA (Presbyterian church in America) supports the reality you speak of: women cannot be ordained, cannot preach, cannot be elders, and in some churches cannot lead men in anyway except for Sunday school children (really depends on the church). This makes some Christians so uncomfortable (It makes me uncomfortable!) and yet so many faithful, Christ loving Christians adhere to this tradition and are in good…

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