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Episode 521: Flirting with Fascism & Can Christians Be Patriots? with Richard Mouw

For centuries Americans have valued their liberty, but a growing number of conservatives are now saying cherished values like the freedom of speech, religion, and the press have allowed progressive beliefs to destroy the culture. In response, some Republicans and conservative Christian thinkers argue it’s time to abandon these failed American ideals and copy the fascist, illiberal strategies of leaders like Hungary’s Victor Orban to stop immigration, fight wokism, and to ensure the government supports Christian beliefs.

Then, a new article about the separation of families at the Southern border brings Phil to tears, and he pleads with evangelicals to not allow Trump near the presidency again. Skye interviews Dr. Richard Mouw about his new book, “How to Be a Patriotic Christian: Love of Country as Love of Neighbor.” They discuss godly versus idolatrous forms of patriotism, what the Bible says about the proper role of government, and debate whether churches should display flags and sing patriotic hymns.

Bonus Patreon news story -

News Segment 0:00 - Intro 3:38 - "How the American Right Fell in Love with Hungary" 39:22 - Trump administration's family separation policy

54:24 - With God Daily

Interview with Richard Mouw "How to Be a Patriotic Christian: Love of Country as Love of Neighbor" -

55:48 - Interview intro 57:10 - Talking with evangelicals about patriotism 59:27 - Defining Christian nationalism 01:01:07 - Healthy patriotism and familial language 1:04:26 - Romans 13 and governmental authority 1:17:49 - Patriotic symbols in worship services

1:30:59 - Credits

Other articles/resources mentioned:"How the American Right Fell in Love with Hungary" (The NYT Magazine)-"

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I do enjoy your podcasts and I know this is not the point of this show, but you've got to be careful when you accuse people of something, even Trump. "There are verifiable accounts of Trump trying to get the US military to open fire on American protesters" is a quote from this episode and is based (as far as I can tell) on quotes from several "tell-all" books. Are tell-all books now a source of truth? Is there any video or audio proof of this? He may well have said it for all I know and I'm happy to be wrong, but if you are going to make serious accusations like this I think you need a little bet…


I'm concerned about the "terrific sense of loss." Is it about loss of Protestant authority, which was severely depleted with major Catholic immigration, or is it about the passing of acknowledged white supremacy? It wasn't long ago that there was a lot of angst about "Southern pride" and angst over tearing down monuments to Confederate Civil War generals and promoters of white supremacy. Is Dr. Mouw using euphemisms for white supremacy?

Please note that I'm not - in any way, shape, or form - accusing him of racism. I just think we should be more direct in our speech.

Dr. Mouw voices concern over the Left's condemnation of all things American. As one of those who has serious problems with…


I've been studying the link between American racism and religion for the past six years. (It's going to take several paragraphs to get to the point.)

It appears to me that the Christian church became contaminated when Constantine made it the state church in the 4th century. At that point, the now-Catholic Church (?) became an entity more concerned with power and wealth than with the message of Jesus. It raised armies, exacted taxes, burned, pillaged, and tortured people to maintain its power.

It's theology was corrupted to maintain that power. The Latin mass, baptism as the only path to salvation (which they controlled), (selective) inerrancy, and indulgences all contributed to control over the populace. Love Your Neighbor (LYN) was…


Hi guys. I felt moved to comment some information when you started off the episode and made comment on the globalists. As you debated who were the globalists, I'd like to mention that the conservative right/christian nationalist use the term globalists as coded white supremacist speak for racism, in particular against Jews. On a side note too I'd like to mention that yes the separation of families is horrific but if we look at American history, we've been separating families far longer than the former president's administration. It's not a "former president problem" it's a country problem in how we treat one another. If you look at Angel Island on the West coast, we also separated Chinese families immigr…


Question regarding Romans 13 and your guest. I have heard the interpretation lately from others as well that it was about an "ideal government". Given the context Paul was writing in, I can't imagine that Rome under Nero was ideal! There just doesn't seem to be room for this interpretation of Paul when read with historical context. I think Romans 13 would be a passage to explore on the podcast or with a guest since it really got thrown about by both sides during Covid too.

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