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574: Non-Toxic Masculinity & Lessons from the Black Church with Justin Giboney

The feminist movement has made significant advances in the last 50 years, but data indicates men are falling behind. Fewer men then women are graduating from college, deaths of despair are highest among men, and the phrase “toxic masculinity” is ubiquitous in the culture. Phil, Skye, and Kaitlyn discuss Christine Emba’s new article seeking a positive vision for masculinity and why it’s elusive to both the right and left. Then, Kaitlyn talked to Justin Giboney from the And Campaign about the upcoming 2024 election. How can Christians avoid the partisan polarization and culture war extremism? Giboney says we should be like Jesus who took firm positions on issues of his day, but he did not pick sides. And he explains the wisdom of the historic Black church with its commitment to Scripture and justice. Also this week, what is God trying to tell us through a surfing sea otter?

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0:00 - Intro

1:34 - Show Starts

5:22 - Theme Song

5:41 - Sponsor - Magic Spoon

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7:24 - Animal News

15:57 - Masculinity

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1:04:44 - Interview Intro

1:06:10 - Lessons learned since 2020

1:14:19 - The third way

1:26:28 - The And Campaign

1:41:14 - End Credits

Links mentioned in news segment:

Surfing sea otter steals surfboards, eludes capture

Men are lost. Here’s a map out of the wilderness

Chistine Emba’s previous appearance on The Holy Post

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The And Campaign:

Holy Post website:

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45 comentarios

Kristin Lassen
Kristin Lassen
27 jul 2023

The bigger and stronger, and those with social position, are always to use that advantage to serve and protect the more vulnerable. That is a distinction for many men. Genesis 1 does not offer a specifically masculine vision to govern and nurture creation; both were called to such. To till and keep in Genesis 2, avad and shamar, also mean to serve and protect.

I always appreciate your joyfully at-peace approach that takes the Bible seriously but not in fundamental idolatry. Thanks!

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People you should have on the podcast based on importance

  1. Les Claypool (Interviewed by Phil)

  2. Bo Burnham (Interviewed by Phil and Skye)

  3. Maynard James Keenan (Interviewed by Phil or Skye)

  4. Eric Metaxas (Interviewed by Kaitlynn)

  5. Reply with anyone else I’m missing

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Contestando a

Nate Collins from Revoice.

(Anyone LGBTQ would be awesome as well, really.)

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I wonder if one positive outlet for all of that drive and energy could be in building and making things. I never took shop class myself but I gather it's fallen by the wayside like art and the like. And I know a lot of guys love working on cars and things. Maybe bringing some of that back into school (shop class, art, music, all of those things) would be not just a helpful outlet (oh, and not limit things by gender the way they used to be either--let everyone do shop and everyone do home ec if they want), but teach valuable hands-on physical skills and let people experiment and find out what they might like to do …

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Lisa Crews
Lisa Crews
23 jul 2023
Contestando a

Agreed. Technical school during high school is available at taxpayer expense to students in the greater PHX area. It should be nationwide. Here's a link for details:

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Hilary Barker
Hilary Barker
23 jul 2023

Hi there!

Good discussion. I do wonder if we get tangled up in defining what is masculine and feminine and end up limiting and policing others. If a male or female lives their life following "love the lord God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself" and "love justice and do mercy" then that's enough. I think everyone felt odd when Jesus was mentioned as showing a woman what it means to be feminine because Jesus actually shows us what it means to be a God-glorifying human, both as a man or a woman. Feminine and masculine are ephemeral (and often based on culturally mandated physical characteristics (thank you, Hollywood :( ) -what really matters…

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23 jul 2023

Really liked this episode! One thing that I didn’t hear talked about much is how to navigate the world as a young man. I was taught just about anything you guys listed as good examples IS toxic-masculinity as it forces others to acknowledge a man or forces a man into others’ lives. Even holding the door open for people was called toxic-masculinity during college. Is there an opportunity to do another episode focusing (like you guys did) on the Bible and why it’s important to not go too far in either direction or like some other comments have mentioned really hone in on examples of biblical men/biblical masculinity?

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