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625: Loving Our Christian Nationalist Neighbors with Caleb Campbell

It’s one thing to fight against a heresy, but what about the people caught in its grasp? Caleb Campbell’s new book, “Disarming Leviathan,” argues Christian Nationalism is an idolatrous, anti-Christian movement, but that we ought to take a gentle, loving, and missional posture toward our friends and neighbors following it. Also this week, Ronald Reagan often said America was a shinning “city upon a hill.” Derwin Gray joins Skye and Kaitlyn to discuss the phrase, its original context in the Sermon on the Mount, and how Puritan colonists used it very differently than modern politicians. Plus, what’s behind all of the hot A.I. images of Jesus?

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Discussion of Project 2025

0:00 - Intro

1:18 - Show Starts

3:18 - Theme Song

3:40 - Sponsor - Hiya Health - Go to to receive 50% off your first order

4:44  - Sponsor - Faithful Counseling - Get 10% off your first month at

5:52 - Responding to Feedback on Debate Coverage

12:26 - Shining City on a Hill

19:42 - Guiding People Away from Idolatry

30:36 - Perfect Love Casts Out Fear

34:41 - Hot A.I. Jesus

49:30 - Sponsor - Go to and start your song – after you purchase, you’ll be prompted to add Spotify Streaming for your original song for FREE - a $50 value! 

50:49 - Sponsor - Wheaton Graduate School - Learn in a rich, rigorous Christian environment -

51:49 - Interview

53:57 - Why did Campbell write about Christian Nationalism?

1:15:15 - Practical Advice

1:23:53 - What About Flipping Tables?

1:33:14 - End Credits

Links Mentioned in the News Segment:

Is America a City on a Hill or a Nation on the Precipice?

Hot AI Jesus is Huge on Facebook

Other resources:

Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor by Caleb Campbell:

Holy Post website:

Holy Post Plus:

Holy Post Merch Store:

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I really think a discussion of Project 2025 would have been better to include where everyone can hear it, not just on Patreon--this is a very dangerous thing people need to know about.


Great talk with Caleb! I am feeling conviction for how I have confronted those caught in Trump's cult.


2 days ago

I'm going to repeat my post from last week in the form of a question. Thinking along the lines of the questions Bonhoeffer and Niemöller wrestled with: As what point stop saying, "These are two secular people running to lead a secular government in a secular country in which we as faithful people reside," and instead start saying, "This person, their branch of politics, and everything they stand for runs contrary to the Gospel and I need to speak up and clearly name and condemn their anti-Christ ways, and it's no longer the time to both-sides because one side is clearly hoodwinking Christians, corrupting our faith, and their agenda is coming for the 'Socialists' (schedule F) first, then the immigrants…


Is Christian Nationalism an issue for the church ...? Trump had been saying abusive and vile things for the last 9 years, and the large majority of White Evangelicals in the Republican party have no issue at all with Trump.

I would ask Caleb Campbell when did Evangelicals become so Machiavellian in their politics and in their church.....

It is interesting Democrats are debating the physical fitness of Joe Biden, but Trump's moral fitness is not even questioned....

The ethical framework for most Evangelicals is a joke, so talking about Christian Nationalism is a bit of a waste of time.

Replying to

I think that's because Trump's lack of moral fitness is, indeed, very very well established at this point, and there's no way he would consider stepping down at all. There's just nothing to question there. It's like the Joker or something. It's more about whether or not Biden can defeat the crazy monster, or whether someone else would be able to do better.

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