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606: Alabama Embryos & Catechizing Kids with Todd Hains & Natasha Kennedy

Updated: Mar 29

Find the full video of the podcast on our Patreon (free for everyone) here.

Last week the Alabama Supreme Court

ruled that frozen embryos created for in-vitro fertilization have the legal status of children, essentially ending all IVF treatments in the state. Some are applauding the ruling as both a morally and theologically consistent affirmation of human life. But others, including some Christians, are saying the pro-life movement is taking things too far. Then, how do we teach kids the core doctrines of the Christian faith when most adults in our churches don’t know them either? Kaitlyn interviews the creators of a new series of children’s books designed to catechize both kids and their parents. Also this week, a new survey suggests Christian Nationalism is in decline, but we think the data is hot garbage.

Holy Post Plus

Holy Post Office - Should We Submit to Pastors?

0:00 - Intro

2:13- Show Starts

3:47 - Theme Song

4:09 - Sponsor - Hiya Health - Go to to receive 50% off your first order

5:14 - Sponsor - Fabric by Gerber Life

Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to protect their family. Apply today in just minutes at

6:25 - Jesus and Candy

8:42 - Alabama IVF Law

35:27 - Poorly Phrased Christian Nationalism Survey

48:57 - Sponsor - Better Help - Get 10% off your first month at

49:56 - Sponsor - Rocket Money - Find and cancel your old subscriptions with Rocket Money at

51:05 - Interview with Todd Hains & Natasha Kennedy

54:06 - Importance of Catechesis

56:51 - Getting it Published at Lexam

1:03:22 - Not Dumbing it Down

1:08:11 - The Approach to the Illustrations

1:27:07 - End Credits

Links Mentioned in the News Segment:

Ryan Burge Article

Christianity Today Article

Other resources:

Holy Post website:

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Holy Post Merch Store:

The Holy Post is supported by our listeners. We may earn affiliate commissions through links listed here. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.

15 comentarios

I am thankful for the Holy Post and its mission. I am thankful that you all do not shy away from discussing things like IVF and the laws in Alabama that affect IVF.


However, it would have been better if you had either talked with a medical professional prior to discussing this topic or even better had a medical professional with you as you discussed this topic. I am a nurse, I believe life starts at conception, and I have two children through IVF.


There are a few things you need to know about IVF.

1.     It cannot create life without help. What does that mean? It means that if, in my case, the doctors put eggs and…

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Depends on what question you are asking as to whether statistics or a more qualitative approach is helpful. “Following the science” (if, by that, you mean following statistical probabilities or biological facts) is very helpful for answering “what” questions. Like, “what drug is more effective at preventing death?” But, “why” questions and “how” questions are often not satisfactorily answered with numbers or statistics. Sometimes, I agree with Kaitlyn, the answers to these questions ARE more “squishy” because they aren’t “prove-able,” but “why” and “how” questions are sometimes more interesting. Like, why, if COVID can be prevented from being passed by wearing a mask, do Christians not wear them? But, the question of whether a mask prevents the spread of COVID…

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I was going to say something similar to Mark Norman about how the chances of survival of an embryo are much less than a fetus at 20 weeks gestation. I think this is an important part of the conversation because an embryo and a 20 week fetus cannot be equated logically. One will almost certainly become an infant and the other is much less likely to become an infant.

Also, I would love to live in the perfect world where I, as a physician, can tell an Evangelical Christian acquaintance scientific facts (like the efficacy of COVID vaccination for preventing hospitalization or even more basic things like how mRNA vaccines work) and have them at least agree with me on…

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The argument I'm pushing against is that "personhood starts at conception", which of course is prior to fertilization, i.e. even less chance of a delivered child.

I've learned you can't bring science to a Bible fight, but in this case you can't even bring a bible to a bible fight. Doesn't take much to point out the unborn were never considered alive, much less granted rights. Check out Exodus and Numbers if you don't believe me. They were property at most, and not even counted in a census until after 1 month old.

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"What is happening? My fellow Christians have lost their minds..." - My constant refrain for the last 8 years....

If personhood starts at conception and terminating personhood is murder, then God murders 40-60% of all "persons" before birth. Does that sounds right to you? This statement is as ridiculous as the Alabama court decision on IVF embryos.

The data:

Here is a simple mental exercise to demonstrate how we know (for sure) that embryos are not the same thing as babies...

Picture if you will a burning hospital. The maternity ward has 10 babies and the IVF ward contains a freezer with 10,000 embryos. You can save one ward or the other but you don't have time to save…

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Thank you so much for your responsiveness. I really do appreciate that. I do think the phrasing "...then God murders..." is equating miscarriage with an intentional act of God. If someone takes the position that personhood begins at conception it does not necessarily follow that they must conclude that God murders through miscarriage to maintain an internal logic. Those are completely separate and independent things. Some women here (certainly not all) do believe that their babies that they miscarried were persons and they don't need inflammatory statements about what conclusions are to be drawn about God's nature based on their presuppositions. These are hurting, grieving people. I'm almost 30 years away from my miscarriages, but others here are …

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Let's think about the potential threat this could be to miscarrying women. I'll use my situation as an example. I was diagnosed with primary Raynaud's Syndrome (a vascular disorder) as a teen in the 1980s. When my husband and I were trying to conceive children from 1993-1997 I had 3 miscarriages and then 2 live births. I hemorrhaged during the first miscarriage and had to go to the emergency room for treatment. The other two miscarriages were handled at home. At that time Primary Raynaud's Syndrome was not considered a higher risk pregnancy factor. The first live birth was a normal pregnancy and delivery. The pregnancy for the second live birth was accurately diagnosed at 11 and 14 weeks as…

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The new Christian Nationalist theocracy has 99 problems and caring about the health and life of a woman ain’t one. It makes me absolutely CRAZY that these Holy Post abortion discussions rarely, if ever, include discussions about what these right-wing states are doing to women, (often married women - not that marital status should matter), with WANTED pregnancies that have unviable pregnancies or life-threatening issues. Can you imagine being told - come back when you’re septic? Or…You and the unviable fetus have equal rights under state law - guess God will render his judgement…oh, wait, you have three kids at home? Well then, may the odds be ever in your favor… This is all madness. This is why medical decisions…

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